tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3402915042780490574.post1436166019252504686..comments2024-03-18T09:09:41.484-07:00Comments on Critical Damage: Quit Pretending There Isn't A Videogame Rape CultureBrendan Keoghhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01772283679871140397noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3402915042780490574.post-52200769647840546122012-06-01T04:57:02.556-07:002012-06-01T04:57:02.556-07:00I’m not a gamer, but cinema is my thing. And I str...I’m not a gamer, but cinema is my thing. And I struggle with this sort of stuff when the censorship debate comes up again and again. I like to think I’m anti-censorship, and that if art has a point to be made, that it should be allowed to make that point in whatever way it sees fit. That said, the thing I find most disturbing about this game trailer (and the recent cinematic craze for ‘torture/ gore porn’) is that the violence and the sexualisation of that violence doesn’t appear to exist for any reason other than to appeal to an audience. By virtue of existing purely to ‘entertain’ beyond any other reason, this sort of tripe does normalise abhorrent behaviours, there's no two ways about it. It doesn’t exist to ‘teach a lesson’, it’s not revealing an unpalatable truth through art, it’s just there purely for audience enjoyment, and that makes me feel a little sick. It’s more the case in cinema than here, but it upsets me that the entertainment industry hides behind the ‘art’ excuse to normalise a very very disturbing set of ideals. It’s hard to see how apologists for said entertainment can’t be complicit in the perpetuation of a ‘rape culture’ if they’re not evening questioning why it is that the game they’re playing (or the film they’re watching) chooses to show the things it does. And it upsets me more to see people defending that and saying it’s okay – because I guess that means it is normalised!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3402915042780490574.post-66316871909841556462012-06-01T04:42:02.514-07:002012-06-01T04:42:02.514-07:00Bravo, Amie.
This has nothing to do with censors...Bravo, Amie. <br /><br />This has nothing to do with censorship and everything to do with what ideologies our culture is built on. Hypersexualised violence against women being okay should not be one of those.Brendan Keoghhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01772283679871140397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3402915042780490574.post-91341229118219766782012-06-01T04:39:38.288-07:002012-06-01T04:39:38.288-07:00Lets have a small percentage of completely tastele...Lets have a small percentage of completely tasteless games, enjoy them for what they are, but also have the accompanying discussions so people can keep them in context. Time to retire the internet outrage machine on this topic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3402915042780490574.post-44218084168636939042012-06-01T04:38:27.933-07:002012-06-01T04:38:27.933-07:00I don't think governments need to legislate ag...I don't think governments need to legislate against people being misogynist douches. I think we as a society need to stop being complicit in such things and start telling others that shit like that is just not on.<br /><br />"Treat women with respect and decency, encourage others to do so by word and example, but..."<br />But nothing. That sentence needs to stop right there.Amiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13084139587852030601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3402915042780490574.post-8379327665542055742012-06-01T04:34:28.203-07:002012-06-01T04:34:28.203-07:00This whole saga reminds me a lot of the 'Dickw...This whole saga reminds me a lot of the 'Dickwolves' controversy which was the result of a Penny Arcade strip. For me, that had the potential to be a lot more offensive seeing as rape was explicitly mentioned, unlike this Hitman trailer.<br /><br />When we accuse 'fans' of this trailer (are there fans? It's pretty terrible, for other reasons) of enabling rape, we do an injustice to actual cases of sexual abuse where somebody has legitimately suffered. What we end up with is a 'cry wolf' situation where, eventually, nobody wants to pay attention because they heard it all before. <br /><br />I think people are generally okay with media until it offends them personally, then the line is crossed. At the end of the day, people will have different thresholds as to what offends them. That's fine. Everyone's different.Tyson Davisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3402915042780490574.post-32193688535146877992012-06-01T04:31:07.143-07:002012-06-01T04:31:07.143-07:00We absolutely do have both a murder and rape probl...We absolutely do have both a murder and rape problem. I'm just very very wary of the 'potential to influence' argument. Once you go down that path you have governments censoring everything to promote societal harmony. <br />Treat women with respect and decency, encourage others to do so by word and example, but also clearly delineate the difference between real life and video games.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3402915042780490574.post-62030165056628630162012-06-01T04:25:54.999-07:002012-06-01T04:25:54.999-07:00I've already discussed this post with Brendan ...I've already discussed this post with Brendan on Twitter, but I thought it would be beneficial to add a public comment as well.<br /><br />I don't really have much to add to the discussion. This blog has killed my enthusiasm for writing another piece about it, because it's already been said more eloquently. One thing that has not been said is: we need to think about where we are having writing these articles and having these discussions.<br /><br />I think it's great that you've written this article. But, as it's on your private blog, the scope is limited. Most of the people who have watched the Hitman trailer don't read your blog: they don't even read Kotaku! We need to have this discussion in forums where it can really affect mainstream opinion. I'd love to see this reprinted in somewhere like Official Xbox Magazine. Keza MacDonald wrote about the issue for IGN UK, and that's exactly the place it needs to be.<br /><br />What I'm saying is: Brendan, get this thing syndicated so it gets where it needs to be- into the minds of naive young men.Alan Williamsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09616732636960055680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3402915042780490574.post-86683204681396521462012-06-01T04:16:45.550-07:002012-06-01T04:16:45.550-07:00Jimmy Carr SHOULD stop making rape jokes. As far a...Jimmy Carr SHOULD stop making rape jokes. As far as I'm concerned no one should make rape jokes. They have the potential to trigger flashbacks to traumatic events for one in six women. They have the potential to reinforce the behavior of rapists. And they're also not fucking funny.<br /><br />Oh, and, fat jokes don't just hurt your feelings. They reinforce stigma and hatred. That's not funny either.Amiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13084139587852030601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3402915042780490574.post-72900937785560063842012-06-01T04:16:25.387-07:002012-06-01T04:16:25.387-07:00Also censorship is an independent issue from bitch...Also censorship is an independent issue from bitching about something being terrible. I'm against the former, and for the latter. No one has said it should have been illegal to make this trailer.SisterStigmatanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3402915042780490574.post-85231627826088495252012-06-01T04:16:02.556-07:002012-06-01T04:16:02.556-07:00Yes, what SisterStigmata said.
Anonymous, when 1 ...Yes, what SisterStigmata said.<br /><br />Anonymous, when 1 in 6 women are getting murdered and society is still saying we don't have a murder problem, then I might find that excuse reasonable.Brendan Keoghhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01772283679871140397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3402915042780490574.post-26532778345486778192012-06-01T04:12:59.030-07:002012-06-01T04:12:59.030-07:00So, the difference here might be that you're s...So, the difference here might be that you're statistically unlikely to know someone who got murdered, that murdered people are rarely blamed for getting murdered or asked what they were wearing when they got murdered or suspected of wanting to be stabbed but then regretting it before they bled out.SisterStigmatanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3402915042780490574.post-20419052587660679772012-06-01T04:01:32.567-07:002012-06-01T04:01:32.567-07:00Replace 'rape' with 'murder' and y...Replace 'rape' with 'murder' and you have the argument that politicians use to ban video games altogether. I'd rather have these juvenile type of games out there along with self depreciating blogger diatribes than censorship because people think games contribute to rape or violenceAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3402915042780490574.post-52482841417584014572012-06-01T04:00:05.222-07:002012-06-01T04:00:05.222-07:00Excellent article. You hit on a lot of things that...Excellent article. You hit on a lot of things that have particularly disturbed me, like the Bloodmoney ads and the Gears of War 3 breeding camps. The handwavyness of the latter as no big deal has always horrified me. It's like making a game with no black people and when someone asks where they are saying "Oh, we ethnically cleansed them!" and then proceeding as if you didn't just say something unbelievably awful. <br /><br />I agree with Rob Fahey that the response to criticism of the video is worse than the video itself. Handwaving it away as just being a trailer is ridiculous. Trailers are expensive and time consuming, a lot of thought went into this and important people signed off on it at every stage from storyboarding to completion. Those people decided that this is what they wanted to show you, this is what they wanted those resources spent on.<br /><br />And what they spent it on is really disturbing. I'm a horror movie fan and I sometimes watch grindhouse movies from the 70s and 80s and these often have a lot of sexualized and fetishized violence. They don't try to hide what they are, these films are intentionally trying to be transgressive and disturbing. The genre is often referred to as exploitation films. (There's even a subset for films about nuns, nunsploitation!) I'm a feminist and I enjoy some of these movies but they are really screwed up and problematic and I keep that in mind. I would never claim that they are harmless or that their content was no big deal. <br /><br /> Every once in a while I see something in the videogame industry like promo videos of Sheva from RE5 in sexy DLC outfits being savaged by zombies (or worse, the statue of her character being attacked and molested at a tokyo toy exhibition http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=3594) and this Hitman trailer that look a helluva lot like something out of an exploitation movie except somehow worse because of the level of polish and professionalism and lack of context and the fact that it is being shown to the public at large as if the content is no big deal. And then for some reason most people seem not to notice or care how incredibly disturbing and screwed up it is. <br /><br />And in the case of this trailer, people will actually defend fetishized virtual snuff from people who are disturbed by it by claiming that it isn't a problem. That is horrible. Media that reinforces rape culture is the most effective when people deny that it has an effect.SisterStigmatanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3402915042780490574.post-27966551728447000712012-06-01T03:52:14.323-07:002012-06-01T03:52:14.323-07:00Thank you so much Jenn (and Helen, and Amie) for t...Thank you so much Jenn (and Helen, and Amie) for these very important inputs. I really appreciate it.Brendan Keoghhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01772283679871140397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3402915042780490574.post-43167461661011364942012-06-01T03:51:31.848-07:002012-06-01T03:51:31.848-07:00[Continuing Jenn's comment:]
Anonymous: "...[Continuing Jenn's comment:]<br /><br />Anonymous: "There is a culture of trash talking. Saying the words in the middle of a videogame gunfight does not equal actually committing such crimes."<br /><br />Oh, I agree. Teabagging an opponent doesn't equal dipping your actual ballsack into his mouth. Photoshopping a penis probably does not actually equal putting a dick into a woman's mouth.<br /><br />Still. "Rape culture" does suggest an eventual broader, unspoken complicity with bullying or abusing anybody who seems "other" because that person is somehow perceived as socially defenseless. Get it? It's a power struggle, an all-of-us versus the-few-of-you. For my own part, my own job as a CM -- as a white, hetero female! -- sent me from feeling powerful and smart to wanting to be dead. And that is not hyperbole at all.<br /><br />Women -- an entire half of the world population -- are abused constantly. They shrink away from being "online" or being in "tech" because the types of people making this linguistic trash-talk "ok" and "normal" are all already there. And more are coming! Younger people! Younger people who have gleaned that this is how the Internet works!<br /><br />Someone once accused me of having "girl on the Internet syndrome," and I replied that, since I have been on the Internet since 1993, I got over being on the Internet long before I ever got over being a girl.<br /><br />Finally, and this is somewhat unrelated, Anonymous, but your last remark -- "hey, I see you're upset, but at least your genitals aren't being cut off in Africa!" -- is kind of beyond the pale. I'm sorry for coming off as so "entitled." But if a woman has the same efficacy of a man, earns $10k less annually, and could be in Mensa if she wanted -- and <i>even if she doesn't</i> have all that -- she deserves to be excused from a "culture of violence," a "culture of objectification," and "hey, women are mutilated in Africa, so try being grateful for what you have!" I really do try to be kind, but that puts me so far beyond even having shit to handle. "That's real"? "That's real," you say? Hey, I have a 160 IQ and have begged my superiors to let me edit the penis back out of my mouth. <i>That's</i> real, too. Describe sexual violence to me again, and how not-part-of-my-life-it-is, and I'll send you a super-cool gif I got when I was 23.Brendan Keoghhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01772283679871140397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3402915042780490574.post-75483350645733181382012-06-01T03:50:54.019-07:002012-06-01T03:50:54.019-07:00Apologies to everyone having trouble posting comme...Apologies to everyone having trouble posting comments. Blogger is pretty terrible with this. I'm about to post another comment from Jenn over the next few comments that Blogger wouldn't let her post:<br /><br />---<br /><br /><br />Hi, <a href="http://critdamage.blogspot.com/2012/05/quit-pretending-there-isnt-videogame.html?showComment=1338543409718#c4569909668103984571" rel="nofollow">Anonymous</a>. I appreciate what you're saying, and to a point, I think you're right: a culture's incoming generation will absolutely co-opt the language the old guard is still using. But I <i>also</i> think there's another unintended consequence of using that established style of "trash talk," even when no malice is intended: language doesn't just indicate <i>how</i> you think, it can even rewire the <i>way</i> you think.<br /><br />To put it a different way, and follow me here: sure, at the outset, a sentence -- an idiomatic turn of phrase -- is not loaded. But what if a noun always "verbs" another noun, where the nouns and verbs in this algorithm are particularly insidious and probably also gendered? How can that syntax and iconography, over time, <i>not</i> change the way kids are thinking about things?<br /><br />The other cool (?) thing about cognitive linguistics is, culture doesn't just inform how you speak; the way you speak rewires how you parse other things, too. If you are always using these learned syntaxes to mean a certain thing, the two soon become inextricable. Sure, I think the argument to change the word "women" to "womyn" is silly, but the argument itself is… kinda based on science instead of "feelings." (Still, I think the shift is due ~900 years in the future, so it isn't like I'm advocating it.)<br /><br />Look, I used to go <a href="http://jennfrank.tumblr.com/post/17355862437/in-my-last-quarter-of-teaching-one-young-woman" rel="nofollow">out of my way to use "mankind" instead of "humankind," to say "he" instead of "he or she."</a>. I tried to be a man living in a man's world, writing like an honest-to-god man. When I was a kid I wasn't allowed to watch commercials, so I never understood a gender construct of what I was meant to be "into"; in college I wondered why feminists were into dumb stupid shit.<br /><br />Do you even know what it's like to be a female subjected to "trash talk" online?<br /><br />Try being female and writing like a man. It worked for me in college. <i>Today you will get smacked down for that, because you cannot win</i>, and unfortunately it is younger people who, in my experience, smack you down for "being a man" about things. Like, what are you, some kind of lesbian? (Btw the Internet uses "lesbian" as an insult, as meaning you're less-than-female or "packing some heat," and God help you if you really are a lesbian or really transgender.)<br /><br />Have you ever worked as a Community Manager? No, I'm really asking. Because my job had not even <i>started</i> before I got my first penis photoshopped into my mouth. I was a well-known actor and musician in Chicago, but all I can remember is repeated allusions to my having a penis, and then that photoshop of a dick in my mouth, and then the comment "hotness fail," all <i>before</i> I started that job. I'm sorry, but does the age of the people doing those things even matter at that point? Maybe it does, though! because I do not remember people behaving like that online in the late-90s or early-00s.Brendan Keoghhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01772283679871140397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3402915042780490574.post-87054538872460577552012-06-01T03:50:06.821-07:002012-06-01T03:50:06.821-07:00Okay, that guy makes some good points. Truly. I gu...Okay, that guy makes some good points. Truly. I guess what I would say to his view, though, is where do we stop? Where do we stop censoring ourselves in order to influence how others behave? One of my favourite comedians is Jimmy Carr. He's extremely witty, and uses rape jokes on occasion. Following that article you linked, no one would makes jokes like that anymore. For some that may very well be a good thing, and I understand that. I'm overweight and sometimes 'fat jokes' can hurt my feelings - I can't even begin to understand how hearing a rape joke would make a rape victim feel.<br />That said, we shouldn't simply stop these kind of jokes or video game trailers from being made. For people to honestly believe that rape is condoned by the general male populace, something is very, very wrong inside their head.Jacknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3402915042780490574.post-39476341054261358832012-06-01T03:40:53.366-07:002012-06-01T03:40:53.366-07:00Yes. I am sure Brendan took down your comment beca...Yes. I am sure Brendan took down your comment because of the first 3 words. It definitely had nothing to do with the way your privilege blinds you so much you can't see that by making comments like that last paragraph you are entirely complicit in the rape culture. See Aime's amazing response below, and everything Jenn has contributed to this discussion also. Before you can decide who's supposedly shutting out your right to comment perhaps you should consider who you are silencing by your attitude and actions. Learn what rape culture and privilege are and then reconsider your comment. <br /><br />Brendan. I personally am pretty offended. But in some ways I'd rather you leave this here so people can judge for themselves where the ignorance lies.Helennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3402915042780490574.post-27612734760881536392012-06-01T03:37:27.872-07:002012-06-01T03:37:27.872-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Jennhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11331783960463452341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3402915042780490574.post-5971334307608652112012-06-01T03:14:52.137-07:002012-06-01T03:14:52.137-07:00To Jack Monaghan and all others who don't unde...To Jack Monaghan and all others who don't understand how rape culture works, here's the low down.<br /><br />We don't think all men think rape is ok. We know most men don't think like that, but you know who does think most men think like that? Rapists do. So, when they see sexualised violence and other men saying it's totally ok they take that as confirmation that their actions are totally ok too. Whether you like it or not, that's what they think.<br /><br />There's an excellent comment on a Shakesville post about the Penny Arcade thing that explains it far better than I have and I really encourage you to have a read of it: http://www.shakesville.com/2011/02/penny-arcade-open-thread.html#comment-141696567<br /><br />And thank you so much Brendan for writing this.Amiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13084139587852030601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3402915042780490574.post-4719719399147387302012-06-01T03:02:40.955-07:002012-06-01T03:02:40.955-07:00Okay, you can leave you comment there, as offensiv...Okay, you can leave you comment there, as offensive as it is, unless someone else tells me they want it removed. Still, you have shown a pretty broad disregard for the subject matter and have made a laughable conflation of right/wrong and legal/illegal that isn't even worthy of engaging with.Brendan Keoghhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01772283679871140397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3402915042780490574.post-20509467155238594472012-06-01T02:57:13.738-07:002012-06-01T02:57:13.738-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08651671335095021023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3402915042780490574.post-7028910177527440872012-06-01T02:47:23.266-07:002012-06-01T02:47:23.266-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08651671335095021023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3402915042780490574.post-16303650677976125382012-06-01T02:39:49.394-07:002012-06-01T02:39:49.394-07:00(Deleted Jack Monaghan's comment for being ove...(Deleted Jack Monaghan's comment for being overly offensive. It started with "as a law student" and went on to claim there is no rape culture because rape is illegal. Nice once.)Brendan Keoghhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01772283679871140397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3402915042780490574.post-45699096681039845712012-06-01T02:36:49.718-07:002012-06-01T02:36:49.718-07:00To the anonymous above me - superhero characters a...To the anonymous above me - superhero characters are for male power fantasies - they're not designed to titillate the men who read comics, those men are expected to imagine themselves AS the hero - chiseled and handsome and irresistible to females. It's nothing, NOTHING AT ALL, like the gross objectification of female characters in comics and all other media where they are designed to be the objects of the fantasy. <br /><br />You argue that there is no rape culture, but how can you ignore how so much of the usual trash talk is based on sexual and sexist terms? I don't want to repeat everything stated in the article but it's omnipresent - faggot, bitch, pussy, ETC, you got raped, these are terms that are so accepted that young people use them without a second thought! That's not because a few dimwits fail to understand the weight of what they're saying - that is because they are growing in a culture which ENCOURAGES that kind of thinking. If it didn't, people would SHUT THAT SHIT DOWN as soon as it came up, because it wouldn't be cool. <br /><br />It's the "Dude, not cool" situation. If a group of friends are together, and one makes a nasty joke or remark, and no one says anything, they are encouraging that behavior by not speaking out whether they actually agree with it or not. The problem will continue or get worse, gradually becoming more accepted. But if they collectively tell him it isn't welcome or okay, it dies out over time. <br /><br />Articles like this one which call out the bullshit rape culture we're allowing are absolutely necessary. This discussion is necessary. Telling people online to knock it off with the disgusting remarks is necessary. Reporting them to XBox Live or whatever powers that be is necessary when it can be done. Pretending there is no problem won't make it go away.<br /><br />And also; this is not about Africa. Don't try to derail the discussion. This is about OUR rape culture.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com